(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[1800]OT[20/600 Canadian]
PW[VingTsun]PB[Vantage]WR[6k]BR[20k]DT[2010-04-09]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
;B[dp]BL[1794.833]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Standard 4-4
]
;W[pd]WL[1781.206]
;B[pp]BL[1791.363]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Setup for San Ren Sei
ihatelag [22k\]: can you hear me kevin?
]
(;W[dc]WL[1761.828]SQ[jd][ce]C[Vantage [20k\]: ok
VingTsun [6k?\]: Now a little discussion of 3-4 point vs. 4-4 point shimari
VingTsun [6k?\]: and answers to ihatelag's earlier question about the difference between D17 and C15
VingTsun [6k?\]: *C16
VingTsun [6k?\]: Playing at D17, seeks to secure the corner with a follow-up stone at C15
Vantage [20k\]: interesting
VingTsun [6k?\]: This formation would lock up the corner for White, and exert a strong inclination to extend along the top
VingTsun [6k?\]: to K16 or K17
VingTsun [6k?\]: Once that second stone is played in the corner and Black hasn't already approached the corner is virtually lost to Black
Vantage [20k\]: How can black stop this?
VingTsun [6k?\]: 3-4 Shimari are very Territory-focused
VingTsun [6k?\]: the corner is worth about 12 points
Vantage [20k\]: Are there any disadvantages then?
Vantage [20k\]: of the 3-4
VingTsun [6k?\]: and the influence suggests a possibility of 30-40 more if he's allowed to extend along the side toward another friendly corner
VingTsun [6k?\]: Now there is something else about 3-4s
VingTsun [6k?\]: This one naturally points toward the right
]
(;B[qf]BL[1781.854]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: This is the conservative 3-4 
VingTsun [6k?\]: Low 1-space kakari
]
;W[nd]WL[1739.445]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: standard response
]
(;B[qd]BL[1754.693]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: punishment phase
]
;W[qc]WL[1721.784]
;B[qe]BL[1743.921]C[ihatelag [22k\]: can you guys hear me?
Vantage [20k\]: yep
ihatelag [22k\]: so ving, whats the benefit of placing that white piece on d17
ihatelag [22k\]: instead of d16
Vantage [20k\]: yes wouldn't that give you less territory?
VingTsun [6k?\]: I'll explain in a minute.
ihatelag [22k\]: my guess it is more secure
VingTsun [6k?\]: White now has sente (the initiative) and can begin attacking Black's shimari (corner enclosures)
]
;W[fq]WL[1575.999]
;B[eq]CR[cn]BL[1725.203]C[ihatelag [22k\]: oh in chinese, its just called going offense lol
ihatelag [22k\]: i know 2 chinese terminology
VingTsun [6k?\]: White chose this side because it is more likely to split Black's forces
VingTsun [6k?\]: disrupt the potential for the SRS opening
VingTsun [6k?\]: or general moyo building
VingTsun [6k?\]: Playing in contact is usually inadvisable
VingTsun [6k?\]: but there are ways to make it work to your advantage
]
;W[fp]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: this extension is the standard response to a contact play
VingTsun [6k?\]: White 5 libs : Black 3
Vantage [20k\]: Interesting
VingTsun [6k?\]: Standard sequence for early development is
VingTsun [6k?\]: Stake out corners; approach opponent's settlements; extend away from initial positions
VingTsun [6k?\]: Most all on the 3rd or 4th lines from the edge
Vantage [20k\]: extend away from your early position?
VingTsun [6k?\]: Extend away from all your positions! ;-)
Vantage [20k\]: lol ok
VingTsun [6k?\]: you're up
]
;B[fc]BL[1704.721]
;W[de]WL[1548.565]
;B[hd]BL[1682.441]
;W[jd]WL[1535.484]
;B[ic]BL[1671.276]
;W[jc]WL[1532.131]
;B[ib]BL[1657.132]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Notice that this mimics the shape created when Black contacts White first ;-)
Vantage [20k\]: Interesting
Vantage [20k\]: so the same libs in your favor
]
;W[dj]WL[1485.447]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: indeed
VingTsun [6k?\]: now balanced though
]
;B[ck]BL[1626.103]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: J18 is only worth about 12 points, while D10 is around 15-20+
]
;W[dk]WL[1455.777]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Go is optimally a game of inches
]
;B[cl]BL[1593.981]C[Vantage [20k\]: What do you mean?
]
;W[dm]WL[1439.461]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Small advantages that add up to a victory
]
(;B[cn]BL[1577.323]C[Vantage [20k\]: Ok
ihatelag [22k\]: wait you skipped a space, wouldn't have be able to cut you at D8
VingTsun [6k?\]: manageable
ihatelag [22k\]: i guess
]
;W[en]WL[1370.13]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: White's building a wall
]
;B[co]BL[1552.058]
;W[np]WL[1358.201]C[Vantage [20k\]: Shouldn't I be trying to wall up the corner?
ihatelag [23k\]: no
]
;B[oq]BL[1532.096]C[ihatelag [23k\]: i think if you try that
VingTsun [6k?\]: C5 was ineffectual --> no threat to White, and hence White takes the initiative again
ihatelag [23k\]: white will get center
]
;W[nq]WL[1342.858]SQ[nf][pj][pm]C[ihatelag [23k\]: try p 6
ihatelag [23k\]: kevin
ihatelag [23k\]: p6
Vantage [20k\]: Can't I come in from the top right or top left?
ihatelag [23k\]: i think kevin may be able to push fairly in from the right
ihatelag [23k\]: enroaching into the center
ihatelag [23k\]: but i dont think that will be enough...
VingTsun [6k?\]: I would think about the top right...
VingTsun [6k?\]: actually... right side
VingTsun [6k?\]: these are Black avenues into the center
Vantage [20k\]: In any paticular order?
VingTsun [6k?\]: Playing too close to White right now, will result in being blocked and White becoming stronger
VingTsun [6k?\]: Not necessarily all of them...
VingTsun [6k?\]: I'm more fond of the 4th line ones
VingTsun [6k?\]: to secure the side territory first
Vantage [20k\]: Ok
VingTsun [6k?\]: because White is ahead territorially already
VingTsun [6k?\]: and if you can achieve two goals at once
VingTsun [6k?\]: It's usually a good idea ;-)
VingTsun [6k?\]: In this case gaining territory and ensuring center access
VingTsun [6k?\]: Let's proceed
Vantage [20k\]: Sounds good!
]
(;B[pm]BL[1525.388]C[ihatelag [23k\]: damn looks like i have a long way till 9p lol
VingTsun [6k?\]: Now white is faced with a choice of tactics
VingTsun [6k?\]: extend the wall up the right from the bottom
ihatelag [23k\]: p7?
VingTsun [6k?\]: or 
VingTsun [6k?\]: Divide Black again along the upper side
VingTsun [6k?\]: and permit the invasion into the center
Vantage [20k\]: o7?
Vantage [20k\]: Thats a lot of center territory
Vantage [20k\]: That white could get
VingTsun [6k?\]: O7 seems logical; but, it's slow and lets Black continue his extension up the side
]
;W[on]WL[1196.212]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: This threatens to cut at Q6
]
(;B[pn]BL[1485.017]
;W[om]WL[1192.713]
;B[pi]BL[1472.706]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: This gains White an extra few points inside his moyo
]
;W[ok]WL[1187.409]
;B[ng]BL[1466.028]C[Vantage [20k\]: Moyo?
VingTsun [6k?\]: this is What is known as an 'Elephant Jump' because it is a clumbsy extension that is easily cut
Vantage [20k\]: Oops
VingTsun [6k?\]: Hard to resist reacting like this:
]
;W[oh]WL[1130.791]
;B[og]BL[1445.276]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Now Black has a hard decision
]
;W[oi]WL[1111.485]
;B[pg]BL[1435.959]
;W[li]WL[1106.315]
;B[lg]BL[1424.096]
;W[kh]WL[1093.082]C[Vantage [20k\]: Hmm
]
;B[hf]BL[1389.439]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: White resisted making the Elephant Jump to K13
]
;W[hh]WL[1061.397]SQ[kh][li][oi][dj][dk][ok][il][jl][dm][im][jm][om][en][on][fp][np][fq][nq]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: White's Moyo is here...
Vantage [20k\]: I can't find  a way to break it
VingTsun [6k?\]: Moyo = territorial framework
VingTsun [6k?\]: Almost impossible at this stage IMHO
VingTsun [6k?\]: So, we need to move back so see how Black might have played to avoid this development.
])
(;B[om]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Black can afford to do this because the bottom right corner is still quite secure of life
VingTsun [6k?\]: and he desperately needs to insure his access to the center
VingTsun [6k?\]: and impede White's progress up the side to create an unassailable moyo
Vantage [20k\]: Gotcha
VingTsun [6k?\]: Now White also has difficulty attacking the bottom right corner (which looked threatening 2 moves ago)
VingTsun [6k?\]: and he has to defend his moyo border from a weakened position
ihatelag [22k\]: 22k again
VingTsun [6k?\]: For example
]
;W[nm]
;B[nn]
;W[oo]
;B[nl]
;W[mm]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Black has choices again! :-)
VingTsun [6k?\]: In addition to a moyo of his own developing
VingTsun [6k?\]: ;-)
]
(;B[ml])
(;B[oe]
;W[od]
;B[nf]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Questions? Comments?
Vantage [20k\]: Very interesting so far
Vantage [20k\]: Can't think of any questions
VingTsun [6k?\]: Okay... I left out a bunch of basic concepts at the beginning; so, I'm going to go back there
])))
(;B[on]BL[1517.994]C[ihatelag [23k\]: start gaining momentum towards center
ihatelag [23k\]: right ving?
Vantage [20k\]: If you insist :P
ihatelag [23k\]: i'm pretty sure i'm right
VingTsun [6k?\]: This is easy to attack
ihatelag [23k\]: oh dammit 23k now... sigh
ihatelag [23k\]: where would you attack it from?
VingTsun [6k?\]: But, White's so far ahead now, he'll probably just calmly defend and 'win-the-won-game'
]
;W[nn]WL[1244.731]SQ[dj][en][fp][np][fq][nq]C[ihatelag [23k\]: kevin try o 5
VingTsun [6k?\]: These parallel walls spell disaster for Black
ihatelag [23k\]: i realized that
]))
(;B[dl]
;W[el]C[Vantage [20k\]: Yep
Vantage [20k\]: Worthless
]
;B[em]
;W[en]
;B[fm]
;W[do]TR[cl][em][dp]C[ihatelag [22k\]: oh by doing that, then black no longer has the chance to go diagnally
VingTsun [6k?\]: and Black gets cut
VingTsun [6k?\]: 3 weak groups
ihatelag [22k\]: at the cost of 1 space, you probably gained better advantage in lower left
ihatelag [22k\]: how could C8 be weak?
ihatelag [22k\]: couldnt he build a managable wall at that point?
VingTsun [6k?\]: No eyes and only 4 liberties
VingTsun [6k?\]: Easily manipulated
Vantage [20k\]: Which can't produce a double eye I believe
VingTsun [6k?\]: It may live; but, at what cost (in opportunity)?
ihatelag [22k\]: good point
ihatelag [22k\]: he'll be surrounded with white
ihatelag [22k\]: so white has more leverage towards center
VingTsun [6k?\]: And 3 Black groups to harry
]))
(;B[pi]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Black and White both get something this way...
VingTsun [6k?\]: Remember? Approach, Extend
]
;W[cn]C[Vantage [20k\]: So, get as close as safely possible, and then create a "trail" away from it?
VingTsun [6k?\]: That's one way of condensing it.
VingTsun [6k?\]: :-D
Vantage [20k\]: Sweet
]
;B[ck]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Another option that the defender has for reacting to a kakari (approaching stone) is to 'pincer'
VingTsun [6k?\]: like this
VingTsun [6k?\]: There are a variety of ways to pincer, and many of them are discussed in detail on Sensei's Library
VingTsun [6k?\]: http://senseis.xmp.net
Vantage [20k\]: How would you successfully pincer?
VingTsun [6k?\]: The basic idea of a pincer is a classic battlefield tactic that has been employed for millenia
VingTsun [6k?\]: Essentially, you are attacking your enemy on two fronts
VingTsun [6k?\]: and as he struggles you establish yourself on the outskirts to minimize the potential for reinforcements to come to his aid ;-)
]
;W[en]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Typical response is to 'RUN AWAY!" (Monty Python style)
Vantage [20k\]: Haha
]
(;B[fp]C[Vantage [20k\]: what if black played ay d6?
]
;W[bp]
;B[cq]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: This is the standard response to White's slide under the 4-4
VingTsun [6k?\]: from the low 1-space approach
Vantage [20k\]: Would White play at b3?
VingTsun [6k?\]: I'm deliberately NOT going into the various joseki-sequences that exist for corner approaches
Vantage [20k\]: that move you kept doing to me
VingTsun [6k?\]: He could; but, in this situation, it's too small (in point value) compared to other plays for White on the board 
Vantage [20k\]: Ok
]
;W[ch]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Occasionally you will get a Counter-Pincer like this
VingTsun [6k?\]: this is quite huge
VingTsun [6k?\]: The reasons why can be explained by going back further...
VingTsun [6k?\]: Not the least of which is the fact that C9 is now quite weak
VingTsun [6k?\]: and needs to run
VingTsun [6k?\]: SOP is 'If you get in trouble: run out into the center."
VingTsun [6k?\]: If you can't make a clean get-away, probably better to play elsewhere
VingTsun [6k?\]: and cut the weak stone(s) loose for the time being
])
(;B[dn]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Is this what you were supposing?
Vantage [20k\]: Yes
VingTsun [6k?\]: an immediate Wedge
]
;W[dm]
;B[do]
;W[dk]
;B[cm]
;W[cl]
;B[bm]
;W[bl]C[Vantage [20k\]: Thats no good :-P
]
;B[bn]
;W[el]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: No, it's not pretty.
VingTsun [6k?\]: White sacrifices a stone for a strong position
])))
(;B[ce]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: Your opponent will tend to interfere
VingTsun [6k?\]: whenever he has sente
Vantage [20k\]: Hmm
VingTsun [6k?\]: to keep that position from developing
Vantage [20k\]: So you need to take control early on in order to make your 3-4 work?
VingTsun [6k?\]: Optimally, yes; but, there are a lot of contingencies ;-)
]
;W[ee]
;B[cc]
;W[ed]
;B[de]
;W[jd]
;B[dj]
;W[jp]))
(;W[cd]SQ[ec][dj]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: This one naturally points down
]
;AW[ec]
;B[dj]
;W[md]TR[ec]C[VingTsun [6k?\]: However, this stone is not as effective wih the 4-4 stone on the other corner, because it is on the 3rd line instead of the 4th...
Vantage [20k\]: i see
VingTsun [6k?\]: So, now you have some interesting ideas to chew on... Any other questions?
Vantage [20k\]: Not that I can think of
Vantage [20k\]: Thanks!
Vantage [20k\]: I want to try some of this out now
VingTsun [6k?\]: Now go out and play a stranger of about the same level as yourself!
VingTsun [6k?\]: Excellent!
Vantage [20k\]: Thanks again
VingTsun [6k?\]: Experiment with it, and come back with your questions
Vantage [20k\]: once i feel like I need some more teaching
Vantage [20k\]: I'll know who to ask :-)
VingTsun [6k?\]: Sure. :-)
Vantage [20k\]: C ya
]))
